துக்ளக் கேள்வி பதில் (06 10 2011 இதழ்) Part 3
வாசகர் கருத்துக்களின் கோர்வை (ஒரு மறு இணையாக்கம், நண்பர்களின் பிற்கால வருகைக்காக).
உபயம்: திருவாளர்கள்:
அருண், நாராயணன், எஸ்.கே.எம், வெங்கட், ஷாகுல் ஹமீது, சிங்கை சிவாஸ் (சோலையூரான்), பார்த்தா, வாஹே குரு, கிருஷ்ணன், சீனு
Page 5 of 7
Narayanan
Dear NSM,
In some other cases your view points were strong but here I see it otherwise. Just because there is a case against Modi this does not mean that I cannot wish him to become the PM. If that is not the case JJ should not be the CM of Tamil Nadu because there is a case against her as well. Personally if it is a case of selecting between Modi and Advani , I will go for Modi only and it is each individual's choice.
// If all the people of India, including the victims of an incident and the people who have sympathy on them, and their advocates also think that this rule applies to them, then there will be no case on the court of law.//
The above point of yourself is not valid as no one is saying that there should not be a case against Modi ( I guess in fact you are intending to that effect and he should be punished immediately like Anna Hazare's court) but we are saying don't label him as the perpetrator of the crime unless proven to be so by the court. And there is nothing wrong in wishing him to be the PM.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. Narayanan,
I tried registering a "like" in your post twice. It didn't work. So I thought I'd post it as a response.
Arun
Narayanan saar
If I may humbly intervene - Modi and JJ's cases are very different.
JJ has been slapped with several cases pertaining to illegal ways of amassing wealth; I know it is a generic classification, so for simplicity's sake, let's run with this. The police filed some proof on these cases and the courts have accepted that there is prima facia evidence against her, and hence proceeded to hearing these cases in the special Courts. She had to fight the legal battle in the Courts, and she has been acquitted in most of the cases - I guess only a couple are pending, for which she is giving "halwaa" to everyone by not appearing in person before the Jury. Anyhow that's a topic of discussion for another day .....
In Modi's case, the Courts did not find any evidence that supports his involvement in the riots. The SIT report, prepared by Raghavan ( at the behest of the SC ), after thorough examinations of witnesses and Modi , did not report any involvement at Modi's level.
So, going by what we have witnessed in the last 10 years, in spite of everyone under the sun ( Congress crooks, Commies, sundry "secularists", English media , intellectuals, "socail activists", minorities fueled by blind hatred ) gunning for Modi, there is still no hard evidence to prove anything. In spite of all this, there is section of people who want to send Modi to the gallows ASAP. How pathetic !!
Narayanan
Dear Arun,
I fully agree with you. I was trying to compare JJ and Modi from the perspective of cases being lodged against them. In one case ( for JJ where there is a high probability of the case going against her) NSM is not saying anything about her competence / incompetence for the CM post . Whereas for Modi he is totally against anyone even proposing his name as a potential PM candidate.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
Dear Narayanan,
if you had noted my comments and various responses, I was simply maintaining that my wishes are for Nitish or Advani and never objected anybody's wishes for Modi for the same post. In JJ's case as compared to MK, she had the advantages over MK and on many counts. Similarly, in my opinion, the advantages from Nitish Kumar (no cases) OR Advaniji (no such cases) are better than Modi and this is the reason of my support to Nitish or Advani.
வாஹே குரு
ஏனென்றால், அவர்களது அகராதியில்:
எதார்த்தவாதி= வெகுஜன விரோதி
நியாயவாதி= அக்கிரமக்காரன்
முன்னேற்றவாதி= கொலைகாரன்
நாட்டுப்பற்று= மதவாதம் ---WG
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
Dear Friends,
In both the cases – Godra and subsequent retaliation riots in Gujarath – one canfind the following scenarios/events/states taken place:
The thinker (analysts, advocates, journalists, politicians, supporters of both side)
And The thought (that was there for some that one side is wrong and the other side is the truth – psychologically it pre-exists due to their emotional attachment or client relationship or party relationship or trust on one side or negative trust on one side)
The observer (mainly the investigating agents, courts/judges – we cannot say that partiality was not there at all but at the end the verdict has to be trusted)
And the observed (incidents, charges, witnesses - there could be lots of clouds due to the above said factors and interpretatins)
The experiencer (it is a pity that know imagination could replace 100% - but the state of mind can wrongly interpret the experience)
And the experienced (this is the pain that even 100% justice cannot bring compensation)
The well educated and articulated thinker can explain matters through his thought. Then the effort of the thinker is to become more or become less; and, therefore, in that struggle, in that action of the will, in ‘becoming’, there is always the deteriorating factor; we are pursuing a false process and not a true process. On the other hand, if there is division between the thinker (CHO) and his thought (that Modi is innocent) , then the effort is wasted. Therefore, one must consider the holistic view instead of analyzing the matter with information that are not directly visible but mostly leaked.
Now, our effort is to bridge the two in respect of all states (thinking, observing, understanding the experience - between the performer and the perceived view). Tell me if you think that all the people in this forum to go to one side of the bridge only?. No arguments should be made from another angle?. I do not agree with you if you do not agree with me.
I never denied the fact that Modi is to be considered innocent until the verdict comes, but I only pointed that since a serious case is going on, we should take care and better to be choosing some one who is not in such situation like Modi is today for the nomination of next PM. In my humble opinion, this is the best option for getting more supports from all corners. You may agree or disagree and I respect your thought.
May peace, mercy and blessings of Almighty God be upon all of us. I tend to stop continuing discussion on this matter, at least for this week.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. NSMS,
தங்களது முந்தைய கருத்தைப் படித்த போது இவ்விஷயத்துக்கு நீங்கள் முற்றுப்புள்ளி வைத்துவிட்டதாகத் தோன்றியது.
ஆனால் அதை "கமா" வாக்கி இருக்கிறீர்கள்.
The categories you have listed above are impressive.
But a closer look will show that there are theoretical divisions and that in practice one or more categories exist together always.
For example, one cannot separate "the thinker" from "the thought" (I don't know why you have not included Thuglak readers in the "thinker" category).
Your "observer" category should include the "witnesses" too. Also, "observers" can also be "thinkers" and have "thought".
What you mean by "observed" are really "events" and the relevant parties' interpretation of such events.
What you mean by "experienced" is really a reference to victims. Because we, as Thuglak readers, feel a sense of deep anger and helplessness at the mindless acts of terrorism executed in the name of religion. In other words, we as readers also "experience" such events but our "experience" cannot be compared with the loss of the victims. So you are really talking about victims in your point.
It would have been really easy to follow your line of thinking if you had used an example in the first sentence of the paragraph starting with "The well educated and articulate thinker". The "Cho" example and the "Modi is innocent" example do not really explain your point here.
The "bridging" that you are talking about happens constantly. We thuglak readers are "thinkers" with many, well informed "thoughts", who have learnt about the "event" through the messages of multiple sources of "observers" and feel deeply for the "victims".
Like I mentioned before, I don't think all of us are consciously trying to "go to one side" and pushing you "to another side". We are simply acknowledging the Supreme Court's verdict.
This is a thinkers' forum. Not all of us here agree about everything to the same degree in the same way. And that is exactly how an intellectual discussion should be. There have been several rub-offs in the past on other issues amongst the current set of pro-Modi readers. All the serious posters here analyze each issue according to its own merit and come to our individual conclusion. So your implication that pro-Modi supporters are being blinded by emotion is unfounded.
Actually, if I may be so forthright... I find the reverse possibility to be closer to the mark....are you absolutely sure that you are not being emotionally blinded?
I just happened to read your last statement...oops....I should have probably saved myself the time it took to write out this response. But since I have composed it I don't feel like deleting it. I put effort into it. But if you don't want to respond, I understand.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
Dear SKM, USA,
Greetings.
You deserve to be acknowledged as you had taken pain for reading into my last posting since it came, as per your understanding, yet again giving a comma to my previous posting.
1. Within the bracket for each categories I just took a few reasonable examples as participants who would be fitting on those category.
2. No doubt, everyone who care about the case and the results are involved in one way or the other. A few dynamic personalities could be linked from all such categories but even they cannot replace the position of the actual victim to the case.
3. The victims experience is far different than what others like us would be feeling (honestly, it is true at least for me as I do not really feel the pain though I understand very much). Even in Godra case, though the court verdict has come, we are not sure that all the real culprits are booked and punished.
4. My focus of the thinker and thought was the following:
4.1. The SC court verdict has NOT GIVEN CLEAN CHIT to any one. If you read some of the postings in this blog (that came from the thinkers as you said) is founded based on their thought that the SC has given clean chit to Modi. You may read back the postings. I was only maintaining that the SC has just shifted the matter to be yet again inquired by a lower court. One need not interpret that therefore the case is weak.
4.1. The witnesses for and against are yet to be concluded in court of law if they are false or truth. I do not agree with some of the bloggers trying to assume that the witnesses for Modi are true and others are false and that too they are trying to justify on technical ground. From technical ground even a recent verdit on JJ case was releasing her but it does not mean that she was not corrupt on that case.
the above is just one example. As I had wrote during last week, when the thought process is distracted by many such kind of assumptions and emotional attachments, then the conclusion will be far from the truth.
page 1 of 2
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
Dear SKM, USA,
continued from above page 1 of 2..
I think that everybody will be emotional and me too. But the magnitude of that emotional chip and one's emotional intelligence process are the key differences from one to another. The emotional attachment can also go varyingly depending on the sitution or belief.
If you analyse my postings, I was the one honestly admitting that my thought process and arguments are coming from one corner in order to find the truth (i.e, to say that I am trying to advocating the opposite side of the Gujarath CM). I had explained in many of my postings why I start from this angle and it is quite justified at least for this blog since there is no one from this corner. Second point I can proudly say is that I have never brought any point from my own assumption but always gave the news that came from popular media and not the editor's assumption. Against which, many of the responses were just based on what CHO wrote according to what his thought process was. These are yet another arguments but not verdict or inputs to the court of law who are dealing on this matter.
An argument has three sides: Your side, My side and the Truth. Let us march towards the truth.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. NSMS,
(For me, this is part 3 but I am responding to your part 2)
Sure everybody is emotional. I don't see anything wrong with being emotional as long as the logic is in place. (Logic is different from rationality; in terms of Venn diagram, logic is the superset, rationality is the subset).
If appreciation for your honesty is what you want - then let me not create any more delays in giving it to you - I totally believe (there are a few others who would endorse this I am sure) that you are trying to be genuine and honest. Otherwise these exchanges would not have been possible. If I didn't think you were being honest I wouldn't waste my time writing you these responses.
The problem is not your honesty. It is your logic.
Your point about your views being "just yours" and not "borrowed" from Cho (and others) like I did - I usually refrain from self-disclosures particularly in anonymous fora such as these. But in this case it might just be the thing I need to explain myself: I used to be a journalist myself. In India. For a very famous publishing house. I know what journalists are capable of knowing. And I know the caliber of someone like Cho.
Whenever one is relying on a source, one needs to be very sure about the authenticity of that source.
I am not saying that Cho cannot be wrong or that he is the only source I rely on.
But for me to come to an unbiased opinion on the Modi matter, I would not only want to see the SC verdict but also every possible inside information. I don't have the time or energy at the moment to do it. So I pay somebody to do it for me. I pay Thuglak. And the magazine delivers. Period.
Singai Sivas
Dear SKM, Not sure if I am mistaken, I know one Pulavar S K Moorthy from Kumbakonam, who used to contribute to Vikatan, Thuglak, Kalki and other weekly magazines in the past. By any chance, you are the same? I had seen him once in some eent, he was then nearly 50+ (I am talking of 1989 or so).Sorry, if I am mistaken. This gentleman used to be routine contributor for tit-bits, jokes and reader-feedback to Vikatan publications then - in the likes of U-Rajaji, AyyakkaNN, Anna Anbazhagan, Thamarai Senthoorpaandi, Melaanmai Ponnuchamy - some of them used to be vivid writers of novels on sociology, too.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. SS,
I am flattered and honored. I am not the same person.
In fact I don't write for the press anymore. Stopped a long time ago. I quit when I was still very young in the industry. I have not written anything for the public eye in a long time. Reporting job, which is primarily about bringing to light negative things in the world, drained me. So I changed careers.
I am not a Tamil pulavar by any stretch of imagination. My tamil is all just college level.
I have been out of the country long enough for people in India to lose touch with me. But the country was never out me.
I wanted to actually say more in my last post.
Your response reminded me of what my words can do. Thank you for reminding me something about myself. It does get lost in the American busy life.
Singai Sivas
SKM, in a way we were / are sailing in similar boat on two different directions!! I moved out of India by 1990 going all over Middle East, back to India, UK, and now Singapore; tomorrow what's in store for me where, God knows !! The way you write, your narrative skills as well as your initials resembled that person, though. Thanks for the claification.
Thus, at times, I used to feel or realize 'Am I lost in the run for making a life, to secure both ends meet?' However, courtesy, Thuglak, Vikatan publications, Dinamalar keep me united back to India, come what may. Contrary to my friends' circle who are not that much perturbed by media or reading habits, I continue to maintain the passion to reading, since my age 12 - then reading Kumudam, Thuglak and A/Vikatan etc. were considered immoral to a greater extent by our elders!! A-Vikatan and Kalki would have been theoritcally different in those timezones, now, there is no much difference anyway. Let's keep the spirit going !!
வாஹே குரு
உலகம் சுற்றும் வாலிபன், SS அவர்களே...
வாசகர் கருத்துக்களின் கோர்வை (ஒரு மறு இணையாக்கம், நண்பர்களின் பிற்கால வருகைக்காக).
உபயம்: திருவாளர்கள்:
அருண், நாராயணன், எஸ்.கே.எம், வெங்கட், ஷாகுல் ஹமீது, சிங்கை சிவாஸ் (சோலையூரான்), பார்த்தா, வாஹே குரு, கிருஷ்ணன், சீனு
Page 5 of 7
Narayanan
Dear NSM,
In some other cases your view points were strong but here I see it otherwise. Just because there is a case against Modi this does not mean that I cannot wish him to become the PM. If that is not the case JJ should not be the CM of Tamil Nadu because there is a case against her as well. Personally if it is a case of selecting between Modi and Advani , I will go for Modi only and it is each individual's choice.
// If all the people of India, including the victims of an incident and the people who have sympathy on them, and their advocates also think that this rule applies to them, then there will be no case on the court of law.//
The above point of yourself is not valid as no one is saying that there should not be a case against Modi ( I guess in fact you are intending to that effect and he should be punished immediately like Anna Hazare's court) but we are saying don't label him as the perpetrator of the crime unless proven to be so by the court. And there is nothing wrong in wishing him to be the PM.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. Narayanan,
I tried registering a "like" in your post twice. It didn't work. So I thought I'd post it as a response.
Arun Narayanan saar
If I may humbly intervene - Modi and JJ's cases are very different.
JJ has been slapped with several cases pertaining to illegal ways of amassing wealth; I know it is a generic classification, so for simplicity's sake, let's run with this. The police filed some proof on these cases and the courts have accepted that there is prima facia evidence against her, and hence proceeded to hearing these cases in the special Courts. She had to fight the legal battle in the Courts, and she has been acquitted in most of the cases - I guess only a couple are pending, for which she is giving "halwaa" to everyone by not appearing in person before the Jury. Anyhow that's a topic of discussion for another day .....
In Modi's case, the Courts did not find any evidence that supports his involvement in the riots. The SIT report, prepared by Raghavan ( at the behest of the SC ), after thorough examinations of witnesses and Modi , did not report any involvement at Modi's level.
So, going by what we have witnessed in the last 10 years, in spite of everyone under the sun ( Congress crooks, Commies, sundry "secularists", English media , intellectuals, "socail activists", minorities fueled by blind hatred ) gunning for Modi, there is still no hard evidence to prove anything. In spite of all this, there is section of people who want to send Modi to the gallows ASAP. How pathetic !!
Narayanan Dear Arun,
I fully agree with you. I was trying to compare JJ and Modi from the perspective of cases being lodged against them. In one case ( for JJ where there is a high probability of the case going against her) NSM is not saying anything about her competence / incompetence for the CM post . Whereas for Modi he is totally against anyone even proposing his name as a potential PM candidate.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed Dear Narayanan,
if you had noted my comments and various responses, I was simply maintaining that my wishes are for Nitish or Advani and never objected anybody's wishes for Modi for the same post. In JJ's case as compared to MK, she had the advantages over MK and on many counts. Similarly, in my opinion, the advantages from Nitish Kumar (no cases) OR Advaniji (no such cases) are better than Modi and this is the reason of my support to Nitish or Advani.
வாஹே குரு ஏனென்றால், அவர்களது அகராதியில்:
எதார்த்தவாதி= வெகுஜன விரோதி
நியாயவாதி= அக்கிரமக்காரன்
முன்னேற்றவாதி= கொலைகாரன்
நாட்டுப்பற்று= மதவாதம் ---WG
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed Dear Friends,
In both the cases – Godra and subsequent retaliation riots in Gujarath – one canfind the following scenarios/events/states taken place:
The thinker (analysts, advocates, journalists, politicians, supporters of both side)
And The thought (that was there for some that one side is wrong and the other side is the truth – psychologically it pre-exists due to their emotional attachment or client relationship or party relationship or trust on one side or negative trust on one side)
The observer (mainly the investigating agents, courts/judges – we cannot say that partiality was not there at all but at the end the verdict has to be trusted)
And the observed (incidents, charges, witnesses - there could be lots of clouds due to the above said factors and interpretatins)
The experiencer (it is a pity that know imagination could replace 100% - but the state of mind can wrongly interpret the experience)
And the experienced (this is the pain that even 100% justice cannot bring compensation)
The well educated and articulated thinker can explain matters through his thought. Then the effort of the thinker is to become more or become less; and, therefore, in that struggle, in that action of the will, in ‘becoming’, there is always the deteriorating factor; we are pursuing a false process and not a true process. On the other hand, if there is division between the thinker (CHO) and his thought (that Modi is innocent) , then the effort is wasted. Therefore, one must consider the holistic view instead of analyzing the matter with information that are not directly visible but mostly leaked.
Now, our effort is to bridge the two in respect of all states (thinking, observing, understanding the experience - between the performer and the perceived view). Tell me if you think that all the people in this forum to go to one side of the bridge only?. No arguments should be made from another angle?. I do not agree with you if you do not agree with me.
I never denied the fact that Modi is to be considered innocent until the verdict comes, but I only pointed that since a serious case is going on, we should take care and better to be choosing some one who is not in such situation like Modi is today for the nomination of next PM. In my humble opinion, this is the best option for getting more supports from all corners. You may agree or disagree and I respect your thought.
May peace, mercy and blessings of Almighty God be upon all of us. I tend to stop continuing discussion on this matter, at least for this week.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. NSMS,
தங்களது முந்தைய கருத்தைப் படித்த போது இவ்விஷயத்துக்கு நீங்கள் முற்றுப்புள்ளி வைத்துவிட்டதாகத் தோன்றியது.
ஆனால் அதை "கமா" வாக்கி இருக்கிறீர்கள்.
The categories you have listed above are impressive.
But a closer look will show that there are theoretical divisions and that in practice one or more categories exist together always.
For example, one cannot separate "the thinker" from "the thought" (I don't know why you have not included Thuglak readers in the "thinker" category).
Your "observer" category should include the "witnesses" too. Also, "observers" can also be "thinkers" and have "thought".
What you mean by "observed" are really "events" and the relevant parties' interpretation of such events.
What you mean by "experienced" is really a reference to victims. Because we, as Thuglak readers, feel a sense of deep anger and helplessness at the mindless acts of terrorism executed in the name of religion. In other words, we as readers also "experience" such events but our "experience" cannot be compared with the loss of the victims. So you are really talking about victims in your point.
It would have been really easy to follow your line of thinking if you had used an example in the first sentence of the paragraph starting with "The well educated and articulate thinker". The "Cho" example and the "Modi is innocent" example do not really explain your point here.
The "bridging" that you are talking about happens constantly. We thuglak readers are "thinkers" with many, well informed "thoughts", who have learnt about the "event" through the messages of multiple sources of "observers" and feel deeply for the "victims".
Like I mentioned before, I don't think all of us are consciously trying to "go to one side" and pushing you "to another side". We are simply acknowledging the Supreme Court's verdict.
This is a thinkers' forum. Not all of us here agree about everything to the same degree in the same way. And that is exactly how an intellectual discussion should be. There have been several rub-offs in the past on other issues amongst the current set of pro-Modi readers. All the serious posters here analyze each issue according to its own merit and come to our individual conclusion. So your implication that pro-Modi supporters are being blinded by emotion is unfounded.
Actually, if I may be so forthright... I find the reverse possibility to be closer to the mark....are you absolutely sure that you are not being emotionally blinded?
I just happened to read your last statement...oops....I should have probably saved myself the time it took to write out this response. But since I have composed it I don't feel like deleting it. I put effort into it. But if you don't want to respond, I understand.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed Dear SKM, USA,
Greetings.
You deserve to be acknowledged as you had taken pain for reading into my last posting since it came, as per your understanding, yet again giving a comma to my previous posting.
1. Within the bracket for each categories I just took a few reasonable examples as participants who would be fitting on those category.
2. No doubt, everyone who care about the case and the results are involved in one way or the other. A few dynamic personalities could be linked from all such categories but even they cannot replace the position of the actual victim to the case.
3. The victims experience is far different than what others like us would be feeling (honestly, it is true at least for me as I do not really feel the pain though I understand very much). Even in Godra case, though the court verdict has come, we are not sure that all the real culprits are booked and punished.
4. My focus of the thinker and thought was the following:
4.1. The SC court verdict has NOT GIVEN CLEAN CHIT to any one. If you read some of the postings in this blog (that came from the thinkers as you said) is founded based on their thought that the SC has given clean chit to Modi. You may read back the postings. I was only maintaining that the SC has just shifted the matter to be yet again inquired by a lower court. One need not interpret that therefore the case is weak.
4.1. The witnesses for and against are yet to be concluded in court of law if they are false or truth. I do not agree with some of the bloggers trying to assume that the witnesses for Modi are true and others are false and that too they are trying to justify on technical ground. From technical ground even a recent verdit on JJ case was releasing her but it does not mean that she was not corrupt on that case.
the above is just one example. As I had wrote during last week, when the thought process is distracted by many such kind of assumptions and emotional attachments, then the conclusion will be far from the truth.
page 1 of 2
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed Dear SKM, USA,
continued from above page 1 of 2..
I think that everybody will be emotional and me too. But the magnitude of that emotional chip and one's emotional intelligence process are the key differences from one to another. The emotional attachment can also go varyingly depending on the sitution or belief.
If you analyse my postings, I was the one honestly admitting that my thought process and arguments are coming from one corner in order to find the truth (i.e, to say that I am trying to advocating the opposite side of the Gujarath CM). I had explained in many of my postings why I start from this angle and it is quite justified at least for this blog since there is no one from this corner. Second point I can proudly say is that I have never brought any point from my own assumption but always gave the news that came from popular media and not the editor's assumption. Against which, many of the responses were just based on what CHO wrote according to what his thought process was. These are yet another arguments but not verdict or inputs to the court of law who are dealing on this matter.
An argument has three sides: Your side, My side and the Truth. Let us march towards the truth.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. NSMS,
(For me, this is part 3 but I am responding to your part 2)
Sure everybody is emotional. I don't see anything wrong with being emotional as long as the logic is in place. (Logic is different from rationality; in terms of Venn diagram, logic is the superset, rationality is the subset).
If appreciation for your honesty is what you want - then let me not create any more delays in giving it to you - I totally believe (there are a few others who would endorse this I am sure) that you are trying to be genuine and honest. Otherwise these exchanges would not have been possible. If I didn't think you were being honest I wouldn't waste my time writing you these responses.
The problem is not your honesty. It is your logic.
Your point about your views being "just yours" and not "borrowed" from Cho (and others) like I did - I usually refrain from self-disclosures particularly in anonymous fora such as these. But in this case it might just be the thing I need to explain myself: I used to be a journalist myself. In India. For a very famous publishing house. I know what journalists are capable of knowing. And I know the caliber of someone like Cho.
Whenever one is relying on a source, one needs to be very sure about the authenticity of that source.
I am not saying that Cho cannot be wrong or that he is the only source I rely on.
But for me to come to an unbiased opinion on the Modi matter, I would not only want to see the SC verdict but also every possible inside information. I don't have the time or energy at the moment to do it. So I pay somebody to do it for me. I pay Thuglak. And the magazine delivers. Period.
Singai Sivas Dear SKM, Not sure if I am mistaken, I know one Pulavar S K Moorthy from Kumbakonam, who used to contribute to Vikatan, Thuglak, Kalki and other weekly magazines in the past. By any chance, you are the same? I had seen him once in some eent, he was then nearly 50+ (I am talking of 1989 or so).Sorry, if I am mistaken. This gentleman used to be routine contributor for tit-bits, jokes and reader-feedback to Vikatan publications then - in the likes of U-Rajaji, AyyakkaNN, Anna Anbazhagan, Thamarai Senthoorpaandi, Melaanmai Ponnuchamy - some of them used to be vivid writers of novels on sociology, too.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. SS,
I am flattered and honored. I am not the same person.
In fact I don't write for the press anymore. Stopped a long time ago. I quit when I was still very young in the industry. I have not written anything for the public eye in a long time. Reporting job, which is primarily about bringing to light negative things in the world, drained me. So I changed careers.
I am not a Tamil pulavar by any stretch of imagination. My tamil is all just college level.
I have been out of the country long enough for people in India to lose touch with me. But the country was never out me.
I wanted to actually say more in my last post.
Your response reminded me of what my words can do. Thank you for reminding me something about myself. It does get lost in the American busy life.
Singai Sivas SKM, in a way we were / are sailing in similar boat on two different directions!! I moved out of India by 1990 going all over Middle East, back to India, UK, and now Singapore; tomorrow what's in store for me where, God knows !! The way you write, your narrative skills as well as your initials resembled that person, though. Thanks for the claification.
Thus, at times, I used to feel or realize 'Am I lost in the run for making a life, to secure both ends meet?' However, courtesy, Thuglak, Vikatan publications, Dinamalar keep me united back to India, come what may. Contrary to my friends' circle who are not that much perturbed by media or reading habits, I continue to maintain the passion to reading, since my age 12 - then reading Kumudam, Thuglak and A/Vikatan etc. were considered immoral to a greater extent by our elders!! A-Vikatan and Kalki would have been theoritcally different in those timezones, now, there is no much difference anyway. Let's keep the spirit going !!
வாஹே குரு உலகம் சுற்றும் வாலிபன், SS அவர்களே...
Yesterday, 9:01:42 PM
Page 6 of 7
Narayan
Dear SS,
Dear SS,
I am also like you. Reading Thuglak / AV from a young age and started like you to middle east first and the sililarities end here. Am not as articulate as others such as SKM/ Arun and others. So i don't deserve that credit .I think moving out of India widens your perspective, you are able to view things objectively as you interact with different cultures and as I see it that is the similairty of the core members of this discussion group. I am not trying to say people who are in India are narrow minded but moving out of India changed me.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. SS,
Thank you again, for your good words.
Unlike you I have lived only in one foreign country (i.e., US) although visited a few others.
I know what you mean when you say, "am I lost in the run for making life".
I guess right at the time I started feeling disconnected my guru happened to me. So my spiritual practice helps me a whole lot. It has given me the strength to move away from Indians who don't consider themselves Indians, who laugh at any form of God worship, particularly Hindu worship. My practice also has helped me understand my heritage better. Back in India I didn't have the opportunity to understand my traditions in my own terms and adopt them in ways that make sense in my current life.
I am trying to actively do something that can help bridge the West and the East in someway. Let's see what happens.
By the way - SKM is an abbreviation of a name that I would have liked to have had - it is not the name I was given at birth.
My best to you.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
ஹலோ SuKaM தானே?
Singai Sivas
SemaSemaSuperSareh!!
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
ShriShri,
SuKaMaana NeSaMudan WalGa pallaandu
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. NSMS,
Thank you much for responding to my latest post. I know you wanted to take a break from the Modi issue this week. So I appreciate your response.
In my responses I am just going to use the same numbers you have used for your points above. I want to try avoid reproducing your words as much as possible as that would make the blog longer.
1. Point taken. However, when one is explaining a theoretically new idea such as the one you proposed, the rest of the readers unused to this way of thinking need more examples to grasp at the spirit behind your letters. That's why I mentioned the point about examples.
2. Your empathy with the actual victims is well noted. However, that is not the ONLY kind of experience that the Gujarat events have evoked. Simply because one experience involves personal loss and the other kind does not, it does mean that experience itself does not exist.
3. Your point 3 doesn't seem drastically different from point 2. So my answer is the same.
4.
4.1. We are all aware that the final verdict is yet to come. But the way things have turned out so far, the probability is extremely high that Modi is going to come out of this clean. This is what Cho's article said last week. It was Cho's analysis/prediction on how the case is going to turn out. He basically said, that from this point on we are not going to have any major surprises. And all the Modi supporters here agree. We too have been following the case, albeit to different degree.
The point here is, all the pro-Modi readers here are excited about the probability that he is going to come out clean. And you are not!
Imagine yourself on the day votes were counted in June 2011 for the May election. We had various media reports that explained who was "leading" and where; By the time JJ crossed the 90 seats mark many media people predicted a win for her. How? Because they anticipated no serious turnabout in the voting patterns. It was pretty clear to the insiders who was going to win. By the time JJ cleared the 115 or 120 mark the question was no longer who was going to win, the question became "by how wide a margin is JJ going to win". How would it be if someone were to come up and say, the final results are not out yet, so don't jump with joy? This case is like that.
When media people see a certain trend they make a prediction because they are privy to many types of information not easily available to the public. Many times they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Cho himself has acknowledged this. The Modi case has not turned up any strong evidence against him so far so Cho is predicting that he is going to come out with a clean chit.
Some of us are happy about it. You are unhappy about it. That's all.
The pro-Modi supporters' logic is not flawed as you seem to suggest/imply. Some of us are more articulate than others; but even the inarticulate people seem to be reading many sources and making up their own minds.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. NSMS,
(Part 2 contd)
4.1 (Your second one).
None of us are saying that only pro-Modi witnesses are right and against-Modi witnesses are wrong. We are all saying that there is no strong evidence against Modi.
In fact, we are not even saying that Modi is some kind of a political saint. We are just saying that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration and show some real growth - something that has largely been appreciated particularly by Gujarat Muslims. It is not easy to win the hearts of potential adversarial vote banks. Modi's approach has done it. We believe that will be good for all of India.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed
//In fact, we are not even saying that Modi is some kind of a political saint. We are just saying that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration and show some real growth//
Dear SKM,
if you had noticed even my postings, I did also mentioned that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration (Nitish, Advani, Modi, Anthony and so on). Many of your choices are insisting on Modi to have a preference over other few but my choice is the preference of not having Modi preferred over others. Reasons were repeatedly discussed with agreement and disagreement. We agree to disagree. And yet there could be a lots of political, legal turn outs in Indian history before the next election.
Due to one key projects completion and an academic exchibition, for which I am on travelling, I will not be able to sit for longer time for writing this week and next week other than using the "like by" in order to acknowledge all your valuable postings.
Friends,
தங்கமே, தமிழ்ச்சங்கமே, தாரணியை தமிழால் ஆளத்துடிக்கும் வர்க்கமே, தளராத மனம் உடைய தெளிவே, தமிழ்பூமி செழித்தோங்க, திருச்சியும் தஞ்சையும் வாஞ்சையுடன் வரவேற்க, பட்டுக்கோட்டை எட்டிப்பார்க்க, மதுக்கூரை மதிக்கூராக்க வரும் மாபெரும் போர்ப்பரணியே வருக வருக என்று வரவேற்கும் தப்பிக்க வழியற்ற தம்பிகளும் தடுக்க முடியாத அண்ணன்களும் 'மவ்வனே வாடா வா' என்று காத்திருக்கும் பெரியோர்களும்
அடிக்க (இருக்கும் பிளக்ஸ் போஸ்டர்களை) வேண்டாம் என்று சொல்லிக்கொண்டே, என் 31-10-2011 முதல் 13-11-2011 வரையிலான இந்தியப் பயணத்திட்டத்தில் இன்று கையெழுத்திடுகிறேன். இந்திய சரித்திரத்தை எழுதிக்கொண்
Partha
Have a nice trip to your native place. Did your daughter promoted you as grandpa? Best wishes for that.
Singai Sivas
WG, thanks to have pointed those names.......too....I was recalling one after another.........somehow their names did not strike through, your memory too is sharp......!! Keep it up!!
Narayanan
Yes படுதலம் சுகுமாரன் is important . He is the one who got one day jail for Vikatan's editor ( for writing a joke as to how to differentiate between MLAs and MPs). He was involved in Ju.Vee for sometime after that incident. Not sure whether he is writing now.
Dear SS,
Dear SS,
I am also like you. Reading Thuglak / AV from a young age and started like you to middle east first and the sililarities end here. Am not as articulate as others such as SKM/ Arun and others. So i don't deserve that credit .I think moving out of India widens your perspective, you are able to view things objectively as you interact with different cultures and as I see it that is the similairty of the core members of this discussion group. I am not trying to say people who are in India are narrow minded but moving out of India changed me.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. SS,
Thank you again, for your good words.
Unlike you I have lived only in one foreign country (i.e., US) although visited a few others.
I know what you mean when you say, "am I lost in the run for making life".
I guess right at the time I started feeling disconnected my guru happened to me. So my spiritual practice helps me a whole lot. It has given me the strength to move away from Indians who don't consider themselves Indians, who laugh at any form of God worship, particularly Hindu worship. My practice also has helped me understand my heritage better. Back in India I didn't have the opportunity to understand my traditions in my own terms and adopt them in ways that make sense in my current life.
I am trying to actively do something that can help bridge the West and the East in someway. Let's see what happens.
By the way - SKM is an abbreviation of a name that I would have liked to have had - it is not the name I was given at birth.
My best to you.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed ஹலோ SuKaM தானே?
Singai Sivas SemaSemaSuperSareh!!
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed ShriShri,
SuKaMaana NeSaMudan WalGa pallaandu
SKM, USA Dear Sri. NSMS,
Thank you much for responding to my latest post. I know you wanted to take a break from the Modi issue this week. So I appreciate your response.
In my responses I am just going to use the same numbers you have used for your points above. I want to try avoid reproducing your words as much as possible as that would make the blog longer.
1. Point taken. However, when one is explaining a theoretically new idea such as the one you proposed, the rest of the readers unused to this way of thinking need more examples to grasp at the spirit behind your letters. That's why I mentioned the point about examples.
2. Your empathy with the actual victims is well noted. However, that is not the ONLY kind of experience that the Gujarat events have evoked. Simply because one experience involves personal loss and the other kind does not, it does mean that experience itself does not exist.
3. Your point 3 doesn't seem drastically different from point 2. So my answer is the same.
4.
4.1. We are all aware that the final verdict is yet to come. But the way things have turned out so far, the probability is extremely high that Modi is going to come out of this clean. This is what Cho's article said last week. It was Cho's analysis/prediction on how the case is going to turn out. He basically said, that from this point on we are not going to have any major surprises. And all the Modi supporters here agree. We too have been following the case, albeit to different degree.
The point here is, all the pro-Modi readers here are excited about the probability that he is going to come out clean. And you are not!
Imagine yourself on the day votes were counted in June 2011 for the May election. We had various media reports that explained who was "leading" and where; By the time JJ crossed the 90 seats mark many media people predicted a win for her. How? Because they anticipated no serious turnabout in the voting patterns. It was pretty clear to the insiders who was going to win. By the time JJ cleared the 115 or 120 mark the question was no longer who was going to win, the question became "by how wide a margin is JJ going to win". How would it be if someone were to come up and say, the final results are not out yet, so don't jump with joy? This case is like that.
When media people see a certain trend they make a prediction because they are privy to many types of information not easily available to the public. Many times they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. Cho himself has acknowledged this. The Modi case has not turned up any strong evidence against him so far so Cho is predicting that he is going to come out with a clean chit.
Some of us are happy about it. You are unhappy about it. That's all.
The pro-Modi supporters' logic is not flawed as you seem to suggest/imply. Some of us are more articulate than others; but even the inarticulate people seem to be reading many sources and making up their own minds.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. NSMS,
(Part 2 contd)
4.1 (Your second one).
None of us are saying that only pro-Modi witnesses are right and against-Modi witnesses are wrong. We are all saying that there is no strong evidence against Modi.
In fact, we are not even saying that Modi is some kind of a political saint. We are just saying that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration and show some real growth - something that has largely been appreciated particularly by Gujarat Muslims. It is not easy to win the hearts of potential adversarial vote banks. Modi's approach has done it. We believe that will be good for all of India.
N.S.M. Shahul Hameed //In fact, we are not even saying that Modi is some kind of a political saint. We are just saying that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration and show some real growth//
Dear SKM,
if you had noticed even my postings, I did also mentioned that he is one of the very few who can provide some clean administration (Nitish, Advani, Modi, Anthony and so on). Many of your choices are insisting on Modi to have a preference over other few but my choice is the preference of not having Modi preferred over others. Reasons were repeatedly discussed with agreement and disagreement. We agree to disagree. And yet there could be a lots of political, legal turn outs in Indian history before the next election.
Due to one key projects completion and an academic exchibition, for which I am on travelling, I will not be able to sit for longer time for writing this week and next week other than using the "like by" in order to acknowledge all your valuable postings.
Friends,
தங்கமே, தமிழ்ச்சங்கமே, தாரணியை தமிழால் ஆளத்துடிக்கும் வர்க்கமே, தளராத மனம் உடைய தெளிவே, தமிழ்பூமி செழித்தோங்க, திருச்சியும் தஞ்சையும் வாஞ்சையுடன் வரவேற்க, பட்டுக்கோட்டை எட்டிப்பார்க்க, மதுக்கூரை மதிக்கூராக்க வரும் மாபெரும் போர்ப்பரணியே வருக வருக என்று வரவேற்கும் தப்பிக்க வழியற்ற தம்பிகளும் தடுக்க முடியாத அண்ணன்களும் 'மவ்வனே வாடா வா' என்று காத்திருக்கும் பெரியோர்களும்
அடிக்க (இருக்கும் பிளக்ஸ் போஸ்டர்களை) வேண்டாம் என்று சொல்லிக்கொண்டே, என் 31-10-2011 முதல் 13-11-2011 வரையிலான இந்தியப் பயணத்திட்டத்தில் இன்று கையெழுத்திடுகிறேன். இந்திய சரித்திரத்தை எழுதிக்கொண்
Partha Have a nice trip to your native place. Did your daughter promoted you as grandpa? Best wishes for that.
Singai Sivas WG, thanks to have pointed those names.......too....I was recalling one after another.........somehow their names did not strike through, your memory too is sharp......!! Keep it up!!
Narayanan Yes படுதலம் சுகுமாரன் is important . He is the one who got one day jail for Vikatan's editor ( for writing a joke as to how to differentiate between MLAs and MPs). He was involved in Ju.Vee for sometime after that incident. Not sure whether he is writing now.
Page 7 of 7
Singai Sivas
Arun, SKM, Venkat, Narayan, NSM - I just finished reading SKM's recent post as well as others' - what an inspiring anology of thoughts, views and counter-views on a most-scitilating issue that encompassed India in most recent times......that vividly affected every citizen and impacted his senses? I am deeply elated with all your though-tprocess and the way each of you have taken time and efforts to phrase your views, no matter if one agrees or disagrees to each point stated. I may not be grasping all that has been stated here in these forums, at least this week in particular, but I thank all of you for sharing your views in a thorough fashion.........I feel informed now as to how to analyse facts and approach life's happenings and events......in a not-so-stubborn lense.......the way it ought to be viewed in its own perspective...I wish I shall be blessed to handshake with each of you one day sometime somewhere.!!
Arun
SS sir
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I am not very good at writing long, politically correct essays. I tend to cut to the chase and I use this blog to air my views without fear or favour. Sometimes I do cross the size limits, but such transgressions are necessary to articulate my views clearly backed by solid proof - so nothing is left to conjecture.
I believe the Thuglak blog is visited mostly by people, who think objectively and not be carried away by "mass" hysteria. Of course, there are some exceptions, but most of the times the discussions have been very interesting and enlightening. That's what encourages me to come back and contribute, whenever I find time.
Narayan
Dear SS,
I am also like you. Reading Thuglak / AV from a young age and started like you to middle east first and the sililarities end here. Am not as articulate as others such as SKM/ Arun/ WG et al. So i don't deserve that credit .I think moving out of India widens your perspective, you are able to view things objectively as you interact with different cultures and as I see it that is the similairty of the core members of this discussion group. I am not trying to say people who are in India are narrow minded but moving out of India changed me.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. Narayan,
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
You are definitely right about the widening of perspective part. But I think there is more to it than that. In my own experience I became very patient, much more tolerant of differences than I was in India (where I have studied/worked with people from other cultures/nationalities). I learnt the art of conversation here. Back there in India we don't let anyone finish a sentence - we talk on top of each others' words.
I guess I paid more attention at school to studying "soft" subjects - like literature, both English and Tamil. We pay very little attention to these kinds of subjects in India - we are unable to see career options for people who study those subjects. But it is these kinds of skills that are important for what Swami Vivekananda calls as "Man making". More importantly these kinds of skills at having dialogues is very important for any culture that is serious about promoting peace.
SKM, USA
Dear all,
In the last few exchanges between Sri. SS, Sri Narayanan and myself (particularly the last two of us) we discussed how leaving the country gives a wider understanding and broadens one's perspective.
I just wanted to say one thing to all the Thuglak readers who have not left India - you are truly fortunate people to have never left such a land infused with such great yogic power! I realized this when I came to the US. In my humble opinion, for someone like me (who works intensely with foreigners, with very few Indians for company) to stay true to the spirit of our tradition it is such an unbelievable struggle. My sense of internal security (not physical safety) and power of concentration was so much greater in India than it is here. I believe this is because of the hidden power of the mystics that have crossed our land and are still crossing it, secretly, silently.
We may have a few extra material comforts but the true blessing is with you guys. So please...if there is any of you out there, in awe of any of us, please do not be - we have to struggle so much harder to have your sense of roots. It gives me enormous comfort to read even the one-liners that one-time posters provide because they come from such a sense of "we" and "belonging". So please continue to write in your own style, in your own manner. I regard all serious posts (however seemingly humble or inarticulate), as great contributions delivered in individual styles - that is how it should be. So I hope we will continue doing what we have been doing.
Arun
நன்றாக சொன்னீர்கள், இந்த நிலையை நினைத்துதான் மனம் பற்றி ஏறிகிறது. இந்தியா என்ற ஒரு அழகான கதம்ப மாலையை - மதவாதம் , ஜாதி த்வேஷம் , சோம்பேறித்தனம் , ஊழல் , சுயநலம், நேர்மையின்மை போன்ற பல குரங்குகளிடம் அடகு வைத்து விட்டு, நாம் எல்லோரும் " இதுதான் விதி" என்று காலத்தை தள்ளுகிறோம். செய்வதறியாது , கையை பிசைந்துகொண்டு , ஒரு வித விரக்தியில், வாழ்ந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறோம் . இதற்க்கு என்ன மாற்று - அந்த இறைவனுக்கே வெளிச்சம்.
Singai Sivas
Well said, Arun. We are all in the same boat........
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. Arun,
நீங்கள் யாரவது இந்த கேள்வியைக் கேட்க மாட்டீர்களா என்று எதிர்பார்த்தேன். ஸ்ரீ. அருண், நீங்கள் கேட்டது "அப்பாடி" என்று இருக்கிறது.
இதே எரிதல் எனக்கும் இருக்கிறது. 12 Standard முடித்து college admission சமயத்திலிருந்து. From the time I first encountered an unbelievable injustice in the form of the Reservation Policy. ரத்தம் கொப்பளித்துப் போய் ஊரை விட்டு வெளியேறினேன். அதுவும் சுத்தமான ஒரு பிராமணனாக வாழ வேண்டும் என்ற வைராக்யத்தோடு!
இதுவரை என்னால் ஆன வரையில் கடைபிடித்திருக்கிறேன். முதலில் எப்படி வாழ்வதென்று புரியவில்லை. காஞ்சி மடத்தின், குறிப்பாக மஹா பெரியவாளின் கருத்துக்களைப் படித்தேன். வைதீக முறைகளை விடாமல் கடை பிடிக்கவும் கர்ம அனுஷ்டானங்களை எக்காரணத்தைக் கொண்டும் கை விடக்கூடாதென்றும் தொனிக்கும் வகையில் அவர் அறிவுரை அமைந்திருந்தது. அதை practical life-இல் எப்படி fit பண்ணுவதென்று புரியவில்லை. வெளியூருக்கே பிரத்யேகமான cultural and value clash என்னை நிம்மதியாக இருக்க விடவில்லை. சிறு வயதில் அனைவரும் கிண்டல் அடிப்பதைக் கண்டு கொள்ளாமல் வளர்த்த சிவ பக்தி கை கொடுத்தது. என் குருவின் teachings என்னை வந்தடைந்தது. பல குழப்பங்கள் தெளிவாகின. மீண்டும் தெய்வத்தின் குரலைப் படிக்க ஆரம்பித்தேன் (இன்னமும் முடிக்கவில்லை). ஆனால் இதுவரை நான் தெரிந்து கொண்டது உங்களுக்கும் பிரயோஜனப் படலாம்.
பெரியவா கர்ம அனுஷ்டானங்களை விடக்கூடாது என்பதன் மூலம் சொல்லவந்தது என்னவென்றால் (நான் புரிந்துகொண்ட அளவில்) - நம் ஒவ்வொருவருக்கும் தபஸ் தேவை. தனிப் பட்ட முறையில் ஆத்ம பலத்தை வளர்த்துக் கொள்ள வேண்டும். இந்த தபஸ் அதிகரிக்க அதிகரிக்க நம் கண்ணுக்குத் தெரியாத, புரியாத விஷயங்கள் தெரிவதோடு மட்டுமல்லாமல், லோக ஷேமத்துக்கு உண்டான காரியங்கள் தாமாகவே செயல் பட ஆரம்பிக்கும்.
In other words, how to find a solution? Increase personal athma balam through personal thapas. Thapas does not have to mean going in the forest and leaving the family behind. It means a decision to think, speak and act in a way that is close to your antharyaami. To clean one's speech of bad words, to sharply outline one's actions to follow one's words, and to ever remember the Shiva spoorthi in our thoughts (it could be Vishnu spoorthi or Skanda spoorthi or Jesus Spoorthi or Alla Spoorthi depending on each person's Ishta Deivam). This would not count as thapas in Cho's vocabulary but it will count as thapas in God's eyes.
(part 1 of 2)
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. Arun,
(contd...part 2 of 2)
Periyava was absolutely right. The whole country's well being depends on thapas. Because thapas puts one in a state of constant receptivity to the inner voice. The people capable of doing this are very few because it requires phenomenal courage. This kind of courage is greater than the courage on the battle field. This is what made the Brahmins special. They drew their power from their ability to sacrifice for the right things. And never lose heart or hope. They never wanted or went after anything - they were ever ready to be a channel. Such people were the best instruments to serve society. Lord Krishna says that the bhakta who is capable of this kind of tapas is called "sooran".
In my attempts to try something so impossible I have made sooo many mistakes. But one thing. I try to pick myself up every time I fall down. I still keep falling down. But the number of such falls has gotten less over the years and my ability to pick myself up gets stronger each time. With such a strength as my basis, and with the power of good thoughts and virtue (to the best extent circumstances would allow) as weapons, is there any problem that cannot be overcome?
This is at a personal level.
At a social level, we are pathetic communicators. ஒருத்தரோட ஒருத்தர் எப்படி பேசிக்கறதுன்னு தெரியாது. It is actually simple to build unity amongst ourselves if we only knew how to talk properly and how to accommodate differences and how to be fair. This is a very broad stroke. The solution will have to be fine-tuned on a case-by-case basis.
But the social solutions are temporary. Permanent solutions can come only with personal thapas. Funny thing is even if a few people do this it is enough for the whole country (one reason why Brahmins were never in large numbers. The spiritual vibration of any place cannot accommodate more than a few pure souls at a time. This is also the reason why self-realized masters don't incarnate in large numbers all at once).
I am happy to have this conversation if you have more questions.
So what about the Reservation Policy - we need to figure out a way to keep the dialogue going, to keep the communication about the problem alive. I don't have a ready made solution. If I did, I might run for office (and lose!!)
Singai Sivas
Dear SKM, நீங்கள் வெளிப்படையாகச் சொல்லிவிட்டீர்கள், நான் சொல்லத் தலைப்படவில்லை, அதுதான் வித்தியாசம்.
பணம், பணம் என்று ஊர் ஊராக, தேசம்,தேசமாகச் சுற்றவேண்டிய (தனக்குத் தானே ஏற்படுத்திக்கொண்ட சமுதாயக்கட்டுக்குள்) a kind of self-imposed isolation and self-enforced run for life, attempting to live to make both ends meet - not only for self, but also for the benefit of immediate kith and kin to ensure they wuold be on their own when they are ready to take on the mantle - இந்த ஆத்ம விசாரத்திற்கெல்லாம் நேரமில்லாமல் கிட்டத்தட்ட 30 ஆண்டுகள் எனக்கு ஓடிவிட்டது. இப்போதுதான் 4 அல்லது 5 ஆண்டுகளாக ஆன்மிக அறிவையும் தேவையையும் உணர்ந்து அந்தப்பாதையில் என் தேடலைத் துவங்கியுள்ளேன்.
நீங்கள் மேற்குறிப்பிட்ட அனைத்து அம்சங்களையும் நான் சமீப காலத்தில் அனுபவித்து வருகிறேன். இரண்டு உலகங்களையும் (மேற்கு, கிழக்கு) பார்த்து, அதன் தாக்கத்தை அனுபவித்து, நல்லன கொண்டு, அல்லன கொன்று (தள்ளி) நம் பிற்கால வாழ்க்கைக்காக தற்காலத்தைத் தொலைத்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும் கோடானுகோடி மெய்யன்பர்களில் நாமும் ஒரு அங்கமே.
இது மாதிரி மீடியம்களில் நம் கருத்துக்களை அறிவுசார் சமகால நண்பர்களிடம் பகிர்ந்துகொள்வதில் ஒருவித சுயத் தீர்வு கிடைப்பதாக உணர்கிறேன். மேன்மேலும் இந்தத் தேடல் நன்முயற்சியாக வெளிப்பட வேண்டும், ஆத்ம விசாரத்தின் கடைக்கோடிக்குச் செல்ல இயலாவிட்டாலும், ஏதோ ஒருவகையில் அந்தத் தேடலில் நூறு சதவிகிதம் அடைய இயலாது என்பது உள்ளங்கை நெல்லிக்கனி, ஏதோ ஒரு 20 சதம் அடைந்தாலே பெரு நிம்மதி கிட்டுமல்லவா?
Narayanan
Dear SKM / SS,
Excellent articulation of your feelings. I was a vivid reader of Balakumaran , I can feel the same thakkam when I read both of your contributions. I am worried that it is Thursday. Can any one copy these into their blog for people to read later.
On Arun / SKM's concerns about reservation. I went through the same pain after completion of my graduation.I desperately wanted to get into Engineering / MCA but couldn't do so as I am a Brahmin. But I consider that as a blessing in disguise as I did complete CA and am making more money than what I would have made if I were an IT guy. This example is from my personal front to prove that these guys cannot do anything to curb us . We were ruled by Mughals and by British for centuries and recently for 40 years by Naathiga Koottam ( both Kazhagams and Congress in the centre). Despite these rules India's basic vibration has not changed. Also as I see it there is a sort of unrest among Backward Caste itself. I have seen complaints being raised (by BC) in other internet forum that "I got 70 PC and still am not getting an Engg seat where as SCs are getting even with 50 PC". So this reservation will go sometime soon.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. Narayanan,
Thank you. You have made your presence felt through many of your short but substantive posts.
Actually I have not read Balakumaran at all. I used to read Kannadasan a lot.
Thank you for that sharing of your personal story and that bit about how Reservation is creating unrest. I did not know that.
SKM, USA
Dear Sri. SS,
நீங்கள் சொன்னது மிகவும் மகிழ்ச்சி. ஆனால் நீங்கள் சொல்லியிருந்
ஸ்ரீ. அருணின் கேள்வியால் இங்கே இருவருக்கும் சொல்லி ஆற்றிக்கொள்ள ஒரு வாய்ப்பு கிடைத்ததென்று நினைக்கிறேன்.
இங்கே கருத்து பரிமாற்றிக் கொள்வது ஒரு வித சத்சங்கம் என்ற தொனியில் எழுதியிருக்கிறீர். உண்மை. ஆனால் மெய்யான நிம்மதி வேண்டுமெனில் இறை பக்தியை அதிகரித்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள். என் குரு இல்லா விட்டால் நான் என்ன செய்திருப்பேன் என்று தெரியாது. கஷ்டப்பட்டு தேடிய பலனை அனுபவித்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும் உண்மையான சுகத்தில் சொல்கிறேன். இறை அருளுக்கும் குரு அருளுக்கும் மிஞ்சியது வேறெதுவும் இல்லை. இங்கே, இந்த சம்பாஷணையில் நாம் அனைவரும் மனிதர்கள். இதிலிருந்து கிடைக்கும் சுகம் அல்பம். உங்கள் உள்ளத்தில் உறையும் இறைப்போருளே நித்யம். அதை எப்படி contact செய்வது என்ற பயணத்தைத் துவங்குங்கள். எங்கிருந்தோ வரும் நிம்மதி.
Arun, SKM, Venkat, Narayan, NSM - I just finished reading SKM's recent post as well as others' - what an inspiring anology of thoughts, views and counter-views on a most-scitilating issue that encompassed India in most recent times......that vividly affected every citizen and impacted his senses? I am deeply elated with all your though-tprocess and the way each of you have taken time and efforts to phrase your views, no matter if one agrees or disagrees to each point stated. I may not be grasping all that has been stated here in these forums, at least this week in particular, but I thank all of you for sharing your views in a thorough fashion.........I feel informed now as to how to analyse facts and approach life's happenings and events......in a not-so-stubborn lense.......the way it ought to be viewed in its own perspective...I wish I shall be blessed to handshake with each of you one day sometime somewhere.!!
Arun SS sir
Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I am not very good at writing long, politically correct essays. I tend to cut to the chase and I use this blog to air my views without fear or favour. Sometimes I do cross the size limits, but such transgressions are necessary to articulate my views clearly backed by solid proof - so nothing is left to conjecture.
I believe the Thuglak blog is visited mostly by people, who think objectively and not be carried away by "mass" hysteria. Of course, there are some exceptions, but most of the times the discussions have been very interesting and enlightening. That's what encourages me to come back and contribute, whenever I find time.
Narayan Dear SS,
I am also like you. Reading Thuglak / AV from a young age and started like you to middle east first and the sililarities end here. Am not as articulate as others such as SKM/ Arun/ WG et al. So i don't deserve that credit .I think moving out of India widens your perspective, you are able to view things objectively as you interact with different cultures and as I see it that is the similairty of the core members of this discussion group. I am not trying to say people who are in India are narrow minded but moving out of India changed me.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. Narayan,
Thank you for your words of encouragement.
You are definitely right about the widening of perspective part. But I think there is more to it than that. In my own experience I became very patient, much more tolerant of differences than I was in India (where I have studied/worked with people from other cultures/nationalities). I learnt the art of conversation here. Back there in India we don't let anyone finish a sentence - we talk on top of each others' words.
I guess I paid more attention at school to studying "soft" subjects - like literature, both English and Tamil. We pay very little attention to these kinds of subjects in India - we are unable to see career options for people who study those subjects. But it is these kinds of skills that are important for what Swami Vivekananda calls as "Man making". More importantly these kinds of skills at having dialogues is very important for any culture that is serious about promoting peace.
SKM, USA Dear all,
In the last few exchanges between Sri. SS, Sri Narayanan and myself (particularly the last two of us) we discussed how leaving the country gives a wider understanding and broadens one's perspective.
I just wanted to say one thing to all the Thuglak readers who have not left India - you are truly fortunate people to have never left such a land infused with such great yogic power! I realized this when I came to the US. In my humble opinion, for someone like me (who works intensely with foreigners, with very few Indians for company) to stay true to the spirit of our tradition it is such an unbelievable struggle. My sense of internal security (not physical safety) and power of concentration was so much greater in India than it is here. I believe this is because of the hidden power of the mystics that have crossed our land and are still crossing it, secretly, silently.
We may have a few extra material comforts but the true blessing is with you guys. So please...if there is any of you out there, in awe of any of us, please do not be - we have to struggle so much harder to have your sense of roots. It gives me enormous comfort to read even the one-liners that one-time posters provide because they come from such a sense of "we" and "belonging". So please continue to write in your own style, in your own manner. I regard all serious posts (however seemingly humble or inarticulate), as great contributions delivered in individual styles - that is how it should be. So I hope we will continue doing what we have been doing.
Arun நன்றாக சொன்னீர்கள், இந்த நிலையை நினைத்துதான் மனம் பற்றி ஏறிகிறது. இந்தியா என்ற ஒரு அழகான கதம்ப மாலையை - மதவாதம் , ஜாதி த்வேஷம் , சோம்பேறித்தனம் , ஊழல் , சுயநலம், நேர்மையின்மை போன்ற பல குரங்குகளிடம் அடகு வைத்து விட்டு, நாம் எல்லோரும் " இதுதான் விதி" என்று காலத்தை தள்ளுகிறோம். செய்வதறியாது , கையை பிசைந்துகொண்டு , ஒரு வித விரக்தியில், வாழ்ந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறோம் . இதற்க்கு என்ன மாற்று - அந்த இறைவனுக்கே வெளிச்சம்.
Singai Sivas Well said, Arun. We are all in the same boat........
SKM, USA Dear Sri. Arun,
நீங்கள் யாரவது இந்த கேள்வியைக் கேட்க மாட்டீர்களா என்று எதிர்பார்த்தேன். ஸ்ரீ. அருண், நீங்கள் கேட்டது "அப்பாடி" என்று இருக்கிறது.
இதே எரிதல் எனக்கும் இருக்கிறது. 12 Standard முடித்து college admission சமயத்திலிருந்து. From the time I first encountered an unbelievable injustice in the form of the Reservation Policy. ரத்தம் கொப்பளித்துப் போய் ஊரை விட்டு வெளியேறினேன். அதுவும் சுத்தமான ஒரு பிராமணனாக வாழ வேண்டும் என்ற வைராக்யத்தோடு!
இதுவரை என்னால் ஆன வரையில் கடைபிடித்திருக்கிறேன். முதலில் எப்படி வாழ்வதென்று புரியவில்லை. காஞ்சி மடத்தின், குறிப்பாக மஹா பெரியவாளின் கருத்துக்களைப் படித்தேன். வைதீக முறைகளை விடாமல் கடை பிடிக்கவும் கர்ம அனுஷ்டானங்களை எக்காரணத்தைக் கொண்டும் கை விடக்கூடாதென்றும் தொனிக்கும் வகையில் அவர் அறிவுரை அமைந்திருந்தது. அதை practical life-இல் எப்படி fit பண்ணுவதென்று புரியவில்லை. வெளியூருக்கே பிரத்யேகமான cultural and value clash என்னை நிம்மதியாக இருக்க விடவில்லை. சிறு வயதில் அனைவரும் கிண்டல் அடிப்பதைக் கண்டு கொள்ளாமல் வளர்த்த சிவ பக்தி கை கொடுத்தது. என் குருவின் teachings என்னை வந்தடைந்தது. பல குழப்பங்கள் தெளிவாகின. மீண்டும் தெய்வத்தின் குரலைப் படிக்க ஆரம்பித்தேன் (இன்னமும் முடிக்கவில்லை). ஆனால் இதுவரை நான் தெரிந்து கொண்டது உங்களுக்கும் பிரயோஜனப் படலாம்.
பெரியவா கர்ம அனுஷ்டானங்களை விடக்கூடாது என்பதன் மூலம் சொல்லவந்தது என்னவென்றால் (நான் புரிந்துகொண்ட அளவில்) - நம் ஒவ்வொருவருக்கும் தபஸ் தேவை. தனிப் பட்ட முறையில் ஆத்ம பலத்தை வளர்த்துக் கொள்ள வேண்டும். இந்த தபஸ் அதிகரிக்க அதிகரிக்க நம் கண்ணுக்குத் தெரியாத, புரியாத விஷயங்கள் தெரிவதோடு மட்டுமல்லாமல், லோக ஷேமத்துக்கு உண்டான காரியங்கள் தாமாகவே செயல் பட ஆரம்பிக்கும்.
In other words, how to find a solution? Increase personal athma balam through personal thapas. Thapas does not have to mean going in the forest and leaving the family behind. It means a decision to think, speak and act in a way that is close to your antharyaami. To clean one's speech of bad words, to sharply outline one's actions to follow one's words, and to ever remember the Shiva spoorthi in our thoughts (it could be Vishnu spoorthi or Skanda spoorthi or Jesus Spoorthi or Alla Spoorthi depending on each person's Ishta Deivam). This would not count as thapas in Cho's vocabulary but it will count as thapas in God's eyes.
(part 1 of 2)
SKM, USA Dear Sri. Arun,
(contd...part 2 of 2)
Periyava was absolutely right. The whole country's well being depends on thapas. Because thapas puts one in a state of constant receptivity to the inner voice. The people capable of doing this are very few because it requires phenomenal courage. This kind of courage is greater than the courage on the battle field. This is what made the Brahmins special. They drew their power from their ability to sacrifice for the right things. And never lose heart or hope. They never wanted or went after anything - they were ever ready to be a channel. Such people were the best instruments to serve society. Lord Krishna says that the bhakta who is capable of this kind of tapas is called "sooran".
In my attempts to try something so impossible I have made sooo many mistakes. But one thing. I try to pick myself up every time I fall down. I still keep falling down. But the number of such falls has gotten less over the years and my ability to pick myself up gets stronger each time. With such a strength as my basis, and with the power of good thoughts and virtue (to the best extent circumstances would allow) as weapons, is there any problem that cannot be overcome?
This is at a personal level.
At a social level, we are pathetic communicators. ஒருத்தரோட ஒருத்தர் எப்படி பேசிக்கறதுன்னு தெரியாது. It is actually simple to build unity amongst ourselves if we only knew how to talk properly and how to accommodate differences and how to be fair. This is a very broad stroke. The solution will have to be fine-tuned on a case-by-case basis.
But the social solutions are temporary. Permanent solutions can come only with personal thapas. Funny thing is even if a few people do this it is enough for the whole country (one reason why Brahmins were never in large numbers. The spiritual vibration of any place cannot accommodate more than a few pure souls at a time. This is also the reason why self-realized masters don't incarnate in large numbers all at once).
I am happy to have this conversation if you have more questions.
So what about the Reservation Policy - we need to figure out a way to keep the dialogue going, to keep the communication about the problem alive. I don't have a ready made solution. If I did, I might run for office (and lose!!)
Singai Sivas Dear SKM, நீங்கள் வெளிப்படையாகச் சொல்லிவிட்டீர்கள், நான் சொல்லத் தலைப்படவில்லை, அதுதான் வித்தியாசம்.
பணம், பணம் என்று ஊர் ஊராக, தேசம்,தேசமாகச் சுற்றவேண்டிய (தனக்குத் தானே ஏற்படுத்திக்கொண்ட சமுதாயக்கட்டுக்குள்) a kind of self-imposed isolation and self-enforced run for life, attempting to live to make both ends meet - not only for self, but also for the benefit of immediate kith and kin to ensure they wuold be on their own when they are ready to take on the mantle - இந்த ஆத்ம விசாரத்திற்கெல்லாம் நேரமில்லாமல் கிட்டத்தட்ட 30 ஆண்டுகள் எனக்கு ஓடிவிட்டது. இப்போதுதான் 4 அல்லது 5 ஆண்டுகளாக ஆன்மிக அறிவையும் தேவையையும் உணர்ந்து அந்தப்பாதையில் என் தேடலைத் துவங்கியுள்ளேன்.
நீங்கள் மேற்குறிப்பிட்ட அனைத்து அம்சங்களையும் நான் சமீப காலத்தில் அனுபவித்து வருகிறேன். இரண்டு உலகங்களையும் (மேற்கு, கிழக்கு) பார்த்து, அதன் தாக்கத்தை அனுபவித்து, நல்லன கொண்டு, அல்லன கொன்று (தள்ளி) நம் பிற்கால வாழ்க்கைக்காக தற்காலத்தைத் தொலைத்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும் கோடானுகோடி மெய்யன்பர்களில் நாமும் ஒரு அங்கமே.
இது மாதிரி மீடியம்களில் நம் கருத்துக்களை அறிவுசார் சமகால நண்பர்களிடம் பகிர்ந்துகொள்வதில் ஒருவித சுயத் தீர்வு கிடைப்பதாக உணர்கிறேன். மேன்மேலும் இந்தத் தேடல் நன்முயற்சியாக வெளிப்பட வேண்டும், ஆத்ம விசாரத்தின் கடைக்கோடிக்குச் செல்ல இயலாவிட்டாலும், ஏதோ ஒருவகையில் அந்தத் தேடலில் நூறு சதவிகிதம் அடைய இயலாது என்பது உள்ளங்கை நெல்லிக்கனி, ஏதோ ஒரு 20 சதம் அடைந்தாலே பெரு நிம்மதி கிட்டுமல்லவா?
Narayanan Dear SKM / SS,
Excellent articulation of your feelings. I was a vivid reader of Balakumaran , I can feel the same thakkam when I read both of your contributions. I am worried that it is Thursday. Can any one copy these into their blog for people to read later.
On Arun / SKM's concerns about reservation. I went through the same pain after completion of my graduation.I desperately wanted to get into Engineering / MCA but couldn't do so as I am a Brahmin. But I consider that as a blessing in disguise as I did complete CA and am making more money than what I would have made if I were an IT guy. This example is from my personal front to prove that these guys cannot do anything to curb us . We were ruled by Mughals and by British for centuries and recently for 40 years by Naathiga Koottam ( both Kazhagams and Congress in the centre). Despite these rules India's basic vibration has not changed. Also as I see it there is a sort of unrest among Backward Caste itself. I have seen complaints being raised (by BC) in other internet forum that "I got 70 PC and still am not getting an Engg seat where as SCs are getting even with 50 PC". So this reservation will go sometime soon.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. Narayanan,
Thank you. You have made your presence felt through many of your short but substantive posts.
Actually I have not read Balakumaran at all. I used to read Kannadasan a lot.
Thank you for that sharing of your personal story and that bit about how Reservation is creating unrest. I did not know that.
SKM, USA Dear Sri. SS,
நீங்கள் சொன்னது மிகவும் மகிழ்ச்சி. ஆனால் நீங்கள் சொல்லியிருந்
ஸ்ரீ. அருணின் கேள்வியால் இங்கே இருவருக்கும் சொல்லி ஆற்றிக்கொள்ள ஒரு வாய்ப்பு கிடைத்ததென்று நினைக்கிறேன்.
இங்கே கருத்து பரிமாற்றிக் கொள்வது ஒரு வித சத்சங்கம் என்ற தொனியில் எழுதியிருக்கிறீர். உண்மை. ஆனால் மெய்யான நிம்மதி வேண்டுமெனில் இறை பக்தியை அதிகரித்துக் கொள்ளுங்கள். என் குரு இல்லா விட்டால் நான் என்ன செய்திருப்பேன் என்று தெரியாது. கஷ்டப்பட்டு தேடிய பலனை அனுபவித்துக் கொண்டிருக்கும் உண்மையான சுகத்தில் சொல்கிறேன். இறை அருளுக்கும் குரு அருளுக்கும் மிஞ்சியது வேறெதுவும் இல்லை. இங்கே, இந்த சம்பாஷணையில் நாம் அனைவரும் மனிதர்கள். இதிலிருந்து கிடைக்கும் சுகம் அல்பம். உங்கள் உள்ளத்தில் உறையும் இறைப்போருளே நித்யம். அதை எப்படி contact செய்வது என்ற பயணத்தைத் துவங்குங்கள். எங்கிருந்தோ வரும் நிம்மதி.
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